metalgearfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Hot Coldman
Ok, we really need to fix that editor. This is the third article where I ended up with a glitched infotable as a result of editing it, the previous being Zanzibar Land Disturbance and Screaming Mantis's article. Weedle McHairybug 20:17, March 24, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, somehow you got a ref tag in the infobox template somewhere, which screwed it up, but I fixed it now. I never use that editor, but the plaintext one is not amazing either. --Bluerock 20:35, March 24, 2010 (UTC) DCI? Could someone please provide a reference stating that Coldman was definitely the DCI at the time of Snake Eater. Perhaps, he was just the guy who planned the whole thing (the deviously cunning strategist). Afterall, in MGS4, Big Mama states that it was the CIA as a whole who had her eliminated, not specifically the DCI, we just assumed this given the info we had at the time. Also it would be a good idea to give references/sources for all Peace Walker info added to the wiki, as there's no way of telling if it's accurate, since the game hasn't even been released in English. --Bluerock 09:49, May 1, 2010 (UTC) :Well, if it is agreed that Coldman was the "deviously cunning strategist", then we would have to make some changes in the Wikia (mainly some links). - Marcaurelix ::So was this confirmed then? Not simply planning Operation Snake Eater, but wanting Volgin to fire that nuke in Tselinoyarsk (the so-called devious strategy)? --Bluerock 17:16, June 26, 2010 (UTC) :::Coldman said "The operation to eliminate the traitor? I planned the whole thing." It's true that he didn't say that he told Volgin to launch the nuke but Gene also said that the strategist planned The Boss's death and Coldman said that he planned the operation to kill The Boss, hence, forcing Big Boss to go to Grozny Grad to kill The Boss. Coldman also said that he was sent to South America after The Boss's death and that he wanted his CIA director job back. I'm pretty sure that Coldman was the guy that Gene mentioned. -- 18:28, June 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::I also agree with that. Heck, I showed my parents the scene where Coldman tells Big Boss that he planned Operation Snake Eater, and they also deduced from that scene that Coldman had set The Boss up. I might as well note that my parents are people who have never played or even followed the Metal Gear games, never mind Portable Ops, which is saying quite a lot. Unfortunately, some people still don't see that this is what they mean (as apparently, they don't think this is what was said unless it's spelled out to them like a parent tells an infant.). Weedle McHairybug 18:45, June 26, 2010 (UTC) :Meh, I was just wondering whether the whole scheme really did extend as far back as the Virtuous Mission, as Portable Ops suggested, but they only seem to talk about Operation Snake Eater and eliminating the Boss because she was a traitor. I'll wait until I get hold of Peace Walker to make up my mind on it. -- Bluerock 20:14, June 26, 2010 (UTC) :::I noticed a few details in the picture that would also hint that it was probably Coldman. First off, there were the eyes. Although most of his face was obscured by shadow, his eyes were somewhat visible, and... well they're certainly wider than Zero's eyes, that much I can tell you (Zero seems to look like he's squinting most of the time, and while Ocelot's eyes were a bit more wide, even his eyes weren't that wide.). Another visible clue was around the left cheek. Again, it's barely noticable, but there's this slight... how to put it, muscle pattern that is only shown when someone's grinning/smiling. It can only be seen if you're attentive to detail or if you look hard enough. That "scar" like pattern near his right eye was also seen on Coldman in Peace Walker (although it was more on both sides, I'm guessing skull ridges or something.). The only thing that would indicate that it's not Coldman is the fact that he had a full head of hair. Anyways, just some observations that needed to be noted. I know it may seem pointless, but it's still interesting to note, as it suggests that Coldman was technically first designed during Portable Ops. Weedle McHairybug 21:01, June 27, 2010 (UTC) ::::Well, that can be easily explained. No one would make a bald guy with a tattoo on his head a CIA director in Langley. He probably shaved his head and got that tattoo in South America. -- 22:44, June 27, 2010 (UTC) :::::I agree. That probably explains why he gave that tattoo a spanish name (Lobo is spanish for coyote). I still didn't get the whole "Lobo" exchange, though. Weedle McHairybug 23:17, June 27, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Actually, Lobo is Spanish for wolf. My parents are Puerto Rican. I know a little Spanish. -- 13:16, July 5, 2010 (UTC) Strangely, Coldman refers to the Boss as a traitor, despite the whole defection being a ruse on the CIA's behalf. Unless, the CIA saw the Boss as a traitor way before the Virtuos Mission, when they began to fear her "charisma." Either that, or he wasn't this brilliant mastermind that MPO made him out to be, even if he did plan Operation Snake Eater (merely assassinating the Boss for her defection). And his "old director's job" is definitely referring to the DCI position? Or could he have been the deputy director? You have to admit, not a lot of it was made very clear, so it's no wonder that people question a lot of it. 15:02, July 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::::He said "the operation to eliminate the traitor". That's what the mission was called. There's no way Coldman would not have known that The Boss was not a traitor. And yeah, what Coldman said was a reference to his position as DCI. He didn't say anything about being deputy director. -- 15:13, July 5, 2010 (UTC) :Well, he did just say "director", but I guess DCI is the logical conclusion, if not explicitly stated. Was it implied anywhere else, or is that the only dialogue we have to go on? --Bluerock 21:21, July 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, it's the only piece we have to go by in terms of a direct reference to his position as the DCI (or former DCI to be exact), but Huey does mention that he was regarded as a hero during the height of the Cold War. Weedle McHairybug 21:56, July 5, 2010 (UTC) :::::::The only real hint that we had that would indicate that he didn't know was the fact that he had Strangelove try to find the missing piece for the Mammal Pod, which even that may have just been due to the fact that he didn't want her to betray him, since if he told her that The Boss was not a traitor, and gave her the account that EVA told Snake at the end of Operation Snake Eater, she most likely would investigate that official story, sensing things that didn't fit (namely how Volgin launching the nuke would even come remotely close to being an unanticipated factor, since him never launching it or even arranging it to be launched would be more unanticipated, given what he is like, as well as why have The Boss fake defection to Volgin's unit to steal the Philosopher's Legacy if they already have an agent perfectly capable of doing so, already (ADAM).), and thus cause her to eventually realize that Coldman set her up. Weedle McHairybug 17:39, July 5, 2010 (UTC) :Well, either way, there's no real confirmation that he was the "devious strategist" (giving nukes to Volgin for him to launch), although there's no question of his planning Operation Snake Eater (whether planning the "whole operation" includes the Virtuous Mission is never made clear). The strategist doesn't even have to be the head of the CIA anyway, I'm sure the Director himself doesn't think up every single strategy that the CIA carries out. :He's probably the most likely suspect from the info we have available, but I don't think the wiki should explicitly state it was definitely him. Remember how sure we were that it was the McCone-like DCI, based on the info we had back then? We can put it in "Behind the Scenes" that Coldman is now commonly considered by gamers to be the strategist, rather than just make an assumption again, however likely it may be. :--Bluerock 18:43, July 15, 2010 (UTC) ::Didn't Coldman also say that he knew all about Snake in the same scene. If he was simply referring to Operation Snake Eater, I doubt he'd know too much about the Virtuous Mission other than The Boss apparently blowing up the Sokolov Research Facility after defecting to the Soviet Union. Plus, I doubt that, if he was referring just to Operation Snake Eater, he'd just say "Tselinoyarsk? Ten years ago?" as he could easily have meant the Virtuous Mission or even both missions (since not only did both missions take place in the same year AND the same location, it was also a short time period behind the two). Heck, when Campbell mentioned the Soviets received the San Hieronymo Peninsula from FARC in 1964 in exchange for weapons and additional manpower, Snake explicitly referred to 1964 as being the year of the Virtuous Mission. However, if it needs to be placed in the Behind the Scenes section, so be it. Weedle McHairybug 18:56, July 15, 2010 (UTC) :Better to err on the side of caution. I always thought that line in MPO was wierd, you'd think Snake would recall Operation Snake Eater more then the shorter, failed, Virtuous Mission. Coldman's Tselinoyarsk comment could easily mean any of those three options (one, the other, or both). Also, probably everyone in the CIA knows all about Snake anyhow, he was their agent after all. But yeah, behind the scenes seems more appropriate until its concrete. Otherwise, other visitors will come away from the wiki with the same assumption if we simply state it as fact. By letting them know this conclusion of the strategist's identity is what is generally accepted outside of the games, they can make up their own mind about it. --Bluerock :::I know who the deviously cunning strategist really is, Bluerock. It's Jesus. -- 19 :::02, July 15, 2010 (UTC) :Wow, really? It all makes sense now :D --Bluerock 19:10, July 15, 2010 (UTC) ::Meh, I'm just gonna leave it as it is for now. I wish Kojima had made more of an effort to link the two stories, and take the opportunity to clear up a lot of the issues and dangling plot threads. Knowing that Coldman intentionally set up the Boss would have made for a more personal conflict between him and Snake. --Bluerock 20:21, July 15, 2010 (UTC) :::One last detail that I'd like to share. Coldman mentioned that he "planned the whole thing." when asked about his involvement in "The Operation to eliminate the traitor." If he was simply referring to Operation Snake Eater, why didn't he simply say "I planned that mission." I mean, most people when they say they planned the whole thing would mean that they not only planned the operation, but also planned the factors that led up to that operation. Weedle McHairybug 00:15, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :Snake also, bizarrely, seems a lot more interested in his past career, rather than the fact that the guy intentionally set up the Boss by intending for Volgin to launch the nuke in Tselinoyarsk. You think he'd be a bit more pissed off at him. To be honest, I'd rather they just say that Gene was lying in Portable Ops, when he said all that stuff. Never liked the whole "devious strategy" thing in the first place, ever since it popped out of nowhere. --Bluerock 06:14, July 27, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, it certainly would explain why Gene didn't seem to answer Snake's question. Then again, EVA did tell Solid Snake that the CIA set up The Boss to be eliminated because they feared her, which is strange, especially seeing how they could have easily ignored the route of Portable Ops and just had her tell Snake what she told Big Boss earlier (which is that she died for her country and her being eliminated was the result of an unplanned factor and essentially a last minute decision.). I know that's what I would have done if I wanted to eliminate that aspect from Portable Ops. Weedle McHairybug 06:18, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :::It's also possible that the whole "Deviously cunning strategist" element was incorporated into the storyline because the writers also realized that EVA's account for Operation Snake Eater's conception was pretty weak. You have to admit, it is pretty hard to believe that Volgin launching the davy crockett at Sokolov's Research Facility was an unplanned factor. I mean, given the fact that he had participated in the massacre at Katyn Forest, as well as disposing of anti-communist rebels during the Hungarian Revolution and the Uprising of East Germany, as well as having committed enough war crimes to actually have the West recognise him by Thunderbolt, not to mention the fact that he was the man behind the various extremist factions in the Soviet Union trying to overthrow Khrushchev, what would be a surprise is if he neither launched the davy crockett or had any hand in doing it or his men, as him having some involvement in the Davy Crockett being launched at Sokolov's Research Facility would actually be the most likely outcome. Not to mention Ocelot being a plant by the CIA since at least the Virtuous Mission, and thus most likely to stumble upon the Legacy and steal it. I mean, either the people in office are incredibly stupid (which even that is hard to believe, as they'd need some intelligence to run a country or organization efficiently), or someone manipulated the factors. And whose to say that Coldman had to directly tell Volgin to launch the nukes? You yourself once said that he may have manipulated Volgin in a manner similar to how Solidus and his Sons of Liberty were manipulated by the Patriots. Weedle McHairybug 06:38, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, I realize all that. I don't have a problem with that reasoning. But Big Boss (nor Kojima) didn't really give a hoot about that factor, despite possibly being the most disturbing/heinous part of that whole plan. That the CIA would risk a nuclear war with the USSR just to have the excuse of eliminating the Boss, is mind-boggling, even for MGS. It would have made much more sense had the nuke launch simply been taken as as an opportunity to kill her, while accomplishing their real objective of recovering the legacy. The whole "being fearful of her charisma" would still stand either way. I assume Kojima saw it didn't make much sense either, so he never aknowledged it. --Bluerock 08:07, July 27, 2010 (UTC) ::I wonder why Kojima wouldn't give a hoot about that factor, especially seeing how he seemed to have absolutely no problem with the fact that she was set up from the start given the fact that he actually had EVA tell Snake that the CIA had set her up to be eliminated due to fearing her charisma, when he could have just as easily reused the same explaination that she gave Naked Snake when explaining what happened to her. It's also possible that whoever did manipulate Volgin into launching the nuke did so under a similar manner to how the Patriots manipulated the Sons of Liberty during the Manhattan Incident (meaning, Volgin launched the nuke thinking that America didn't know what was happening even though it was not only did they know, but planned for it to happen, similar to how the Sons of Liberty were trying to attack the Patriots and remove their control, not ever realizing until Ocelot's betrayal that every single action and even every single thing that happened to them were The Patriots doing). Heck, you were even the one who first shed light on that idea, at least on this wiki and that I know of. Weedle McHairybug 13:32, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :::It's also possible that Kojima simply forgot about how Naked Snake would react. Wouldn't be the first time anyways. There was also the fact that in the flashback to Solid Snake at Arlington Cemetary saluting what is implied to be Big Boss's grave, which would imply that he has some sort of respect for Big Boss, and yet the codec conversation where Snake reveals where he learned CQC implies that he not only still has no respect for Big Boss, but even wishing somewhat that they didn't reveal that Big Boss was a CIA agent who stopped a Nuclear War in the 1960s. Weedle McHairybug 14:01, July 27, 2010 (UTC) ::::During the events of Peace Walker, Big Boss started to lose respect for The Boss. He felt that she betrayed him and wouldn't even admit to Strangelove that she never defected to the Soviet Union. Big Boss not showing any anger towards Coldman really shouldn't be a surprise. Hell, Solid Snake showed no reaction when Raiden mentioned Dr. Madnar even though he fired ten missiles at the guy's back. Whether you like it or not, Gorman, Coldman is the deviously cunning strategist. Like Gene said, the strategist planned The Boss's death and the mission in Grozny Grad. Coldman admitted that he planned the operation to eliminate The Boss.-- 16:45, July 27, 2010 (UTC) ::::::By the way, saying that it's hard to believe that the CIA would risk a nuclear war by killing The Boss is moot. Coldman was willing to start a nuclear war by launching a nuke in order to get his job back. Coldman was a lunatic. Lunatics tend to avoid thinking rationally. -- 16:45, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Well, technically, Big Boss was trying to lie to Strangelove about The Boss being a traitor to prevent her from completing the Mammal Pod (not that it worked, but still), but he was starting to lose some respect for The Boss when he started to suspect that the account EVA gave him may have been part of the CIA's coverstory. Weedle McHairybug 16:55, July 27, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Well, I know he lied but I was confused as to why he lied. Prventing her from completeting the Mammal Pod does make sense. -- 17:06, July 27, 2010 (UTC) Tattoo In the trivia it says that it was identified as a coyote. However Coldman seemed to correct Big Boss. "I've seen that coyote before" "Lobo is the name!" He seemed to clearly say that it is a wolf and not a coyote as Big Boss thought. Is it alright to change the information? WolfMaster 20:42, July 15, 2010 (UTC) :Go for it. --Bluerock 20:53, July 15, 2010 (UTC)